Marquise Stillwell is the founder of Openbox, a design studio and consultancy based in New York City that works at the intersection of people and systems. He is also the cofounder of Opendox, a film company that tells lesser-known narratives, Deem Journal, an editorial publication focused on design as a social practice, and Artmatr, an international community of artists and engineers working to merge digital technology with painting methods. In this episode Marquise and Olga discuss his human-centered approach to design and how the design industry can respond to the current calls for racial and social justice.
Links for reference: Openbox, Opendox, Artmatr, Black Girls Code, MLK Library, adrienne maree brown, Shield and Spear, Designing for Dignity.
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Olga: I'm Olga Stella, the Executive Director of Design Core Detroit. Thank you for joining us for Season Two of the Detroit City of Design Podcast. As stewards of Detroit's UNESCO City of Design designation, we aim to raise your awareness of how design can create conditions for better quality of life and economic opportunity for all. Designers are professional problem solvers, and in season two we will discuss the value of design to business and society.
I’m very excited to have Marquise Stillwell on the podcast today, who is an entrepreneur and designer working across design, art, and culture with cutting-edge technology. Marquise is the founder of Openbox, a design studio and consultancy based in New York City that works at the intersection of people and systems. He is also the cofounder of Opendox, a film company that tells lesser-known narratives, Deem Journal, a new editorial publication focused on design as a social practice, and Artmatr, an international community of artists and engineers working to merge digital technology with painting methods. Today we will discuss his human-centered approach to design and how the design industry can respond to the current calls for racial and social justice. Marquise, so glad to have you on the show today.
Marquise: Yeah. Thank you. It's so wonderful to be here. I appreciate being invited to an amazing conversation.
Olga: I'd love for our audience to learn a little bit more about some of the projects you've worked on through your consultancy.
Marquise: So at Openbox, we've always had an array of projects and way that we approach--our early incarnation of who we were, was really working with a lot of different nonprofits. I felt like it was really important for us to establish our point of view based on the work, not just the outcome of the work, but the work that we want to do, the people that we want to work with. So, we never worked with large companies, large corporations for the first few years.
One, we were building up our brand and two, the most dangerous thing and that you can do as a small business, is be taken over by a large client with a big paycheck. Before you know it, you're shaped based on their needs versus your vision. And so it was really important for us to do the type of work that really spoke to the vision and really built our voice from there. And so, you know, we've done everything from working with Black Girls Code, to working with different types of community banks, to working with schools and thinking about the future of education. And so our last project that we just focused on that I'm really proud of, that definitely has been more commercial, but still keeps our feet close to the community was the work that we did with the MLK Library in Washington, DC, where there was a redesign of a library, but particularly in DC, where you have a lot of federal buildings and a lot of federal established businesses, this one was a local project and really spoke to what it meant to live, eat, and breathe in Washington DC.
And so it was a beautiful challenge for us to understand, what does authentic voice sound like for those who live in DC and that are not a part of the--in the beltway of the federal government--but just want to get to work, want to hang with their kids, and want to go to a library to get different types of services, whether it's tax services, whether it's just meeting friends, whether it’s just using the internet. And so we were able to help define what is a library today, what is it used for, and what does it mean to be a space that's authentic to the neighborhood in DC.
Olga: And so how did you do that? I think, you know, understanding the process of that would be really helpful.
Marquise: I think what's really important from the onset is making sure that you're getting a good wide range of individuals that represent the neighborhood. And sometimes it's easy to go to the list that, say, your client may give you, and say “Hey, here are the people that you should speak with.”
And for us it was a "yes and" moment, right? You say, okay, "yes, and" we are going to go out and start to talk to people and start to build a bit of a spider web of connection throughout the community. And so we did intercepts where we talked to people on the street, we went to other libraries, we went to parks, restaurants...and we wanted to make sure that we were listening and watching to see how people are living their everyday life. And so I think the key is making sure that you're looking beyond the obvious. Right? So, like my favorite musician Miles Davis always said, “play what you don't hear, and trust that you'll reach the right people.”
Olga: Mhm. And the value to the library...you know, why did they ask you to do this work? What problem or challenge were they facing that instigated this project?
Marquise: It was interesting because we came into this stage of the project where pretty much a lot of the design elements, the larger design elements, had already been decided. And I remember we were sitting in a meeting with the GC of the project, and they didn't quite know what we do. They told me, I should talk to you guys and tell me what you do... and so we were all sitting in the room, and by the time we got done with explaining what we do and how we approach the work, he said to us, “wow, I wish we would have had you at the beginning of the project.” Because the way that we're able to inform every aspect of the build-out is really important. Even the colors you use, even the wallpaper, the photos, everything that you're choosing is informed by how people want to live in what is a library today.
And a lot of times you go into projects thinking that you're just rebuilding a library as it was in the 1970, like '72, '73, when it was first built. Well, libraries have changed. What does it mean now? How are people using it? What's the experience of that library now? What I love about the work that we do is that when brought in at the right time, at the beginning, and in giving us a seat at the table as leaders and not just vendors, I believe that we can deliver on the true essence of what a space could be, because it's not just a space without people.
Olga: That's right. In your work, you've talked about that equity is the ultimate design outcome, you know, through the projects that you worked on, and it would be just helpful for our audience to understand, you know, what you mean by that, when you say equity is the ultimate design outcome.
Marquise: I mean, equity is such a big word and...it’s one of those things...
Olga: It's the word of the day, right?
Marquise: Yeah, it’s the word of the day, and I struggle with... I think it's a really important word and I definitely use it, but for me, it's broader...in this idea of, people need to see themselves in the everyday, and when people people see themselves in the day, they get a sense of who they are and how they feel about themselves and the way that they respond, and respect the spaces that they are in and out of.
So equity is not just for the sake of the person, though that is important, it is also in regards to how we live as a community. And there has to be a real shift in the way that we see the challenges...like, too many times we're always thinking of, say, the victims of inequality. And we're great at being heroes and wanting to save those people.
I am Black, and I am part of those individuals that people want to save, and, and I'll just say it very clearly. I don't need to be saved--I need to be seen. I need to be heard. I need to be respected. I want to make sure that our voices matter. And when it comes to equity, it’s just as much their responsibility as it is my responsibility as well, and it should be shared.
Olga: And so then, how through design, can we start to achieve that? You know, I think we often battle this idea of, a design is just making something pretty, you know, make it look good. Right? I think that's like the bane of every designer's existence.
And so a lot of what we've been talking about, in addition to this idea of the outcome, is that everyone participates, but everyone should also participate in the decision making around the outcome, and it isn't just about how it looks. So when you get brought in at the right time on a project, what does it look like to do the work and to work with those decision makers that are ultimately holding the purse strings, deciding the timeline, you know, all that kind of stuff.
Marquise: I think what's most important and it's the work that I do mostly on the project, as the Principal of Openbox, is really check in with the power structure of how the project is being informed, and make sure that there is complete buy in and understanding from the top down. You know, our team at Openbox, we can't do the work if the work that we do is constantly being questioned--the value of that work is being questioned by the top, and whether they should actually spend money on this. And so I think it is the responsibility for us as designers is that we do step in at the decision making table. And we're part of the decision on how we move forward.
We do the work to help represent and reflect what the community is looking for. And I take it personal--a personal responsibility--that if we don't maintain an authentic voice in regards to how we approach this work dinner, we're just bending our ways to some capitalist ideas of output and “stuff.” Right? We don't need more stuff. We need more space for people.
I want to make sure that we start at the top and the decision making and the funding as well. And that's something that designers aren't always comfortable with talking about, but the funding is the power. And if you don't ask, where is this being funded? How is this being funded? You may think that you're talking to the person that's in control, but you may not be, depending on the funding. And that's really important.
Olga: Yeah. I mean, I think that is ultimately what this is about, is power. I know you wrote about that in a recent piece around Black Lives Matter, and you know, what we should all be doing, especially white people in support of Black Lives Matter. And I'd love to just talk a little bit more about what the power dynamics look like in design, because I think sometimes there's a misconception that because we use terms like “human centered,” that people are really being considered fully. And I think you've seen in practice, how uneven power can be in projects and how uneven power can be amongst designers.
Marquise: Yeah. Well, I mean the first step in our practice is we need more Black designers, period. [Olga: Amen!] And, there's plenty of Black designers out there, I don't think that we did to figure out where all the Black designers are. I think we'd know where they are. I think that we'd need to recruit, make space, shift the power within our discipline and in making sure that there's room within the frameworks for different ways of thinking and doing, and that this Western... the European way, or approach to design needs to be examined and thought through.
I’m not saying it needs to be thrown away, or that it's all bad. There is a “yes, and” to it, just to use our own language. And until that happens, we're always going to struggle. You know, a metaphor that I've been using recently is, imagine if Black people weren't allowed or never introduced to music...if Miles Davis and Coltrane and Muddy Water and all those, what would music sound like?
Olga: Our ears would be in pain. That's what music would sound like. It would be one note, right? It'd be a one note thing.
Marquise: So that's what design sounds like. Right? It's exactly what design sounds like right now. It's a one note. And so we need to fix that. And I believe in fixing that again, it's not fixing that because I need to be saved, or other Black designers need to be saved. They're doing the work, they're out there.
I think it needs to be collaborative. And I think we need to be recognized for the work that we can do, and the companies they need to hire us with the same vigor that they hire other large design firms. I think there's a lot of design firms, have become somewhat of like, the McKinsey metaphor of, “you can't go wrong in hiring them,” versus taking what is not real risk, and hiring other individuals who can do the discipline as well, that may look different than what you're used to.
And I think we're always trying to find the “safe alternative,” and unfortunately my face and other Black faces, we don't always seem to be safe, the safe bet, which is why you have young people out there saying that our lives matter, like Black Lives Matter, don't demonize who I am. Don't demonize my skin color.
And because that affects everything. It's not just someone you may see walking down the street. It affects individuals like myself when I walk into a board room. And so if that's the change that needs to happen.
Olga: My follow up question to that is: okay, so you're in the boardroom, you and others, all this talent expertise, but then you come up against a decision maker who just wants it fast, wants it cheap, and thinks well, our customer is everyone, so just figure this out for everyone, and isn't maybe as thoughtful about the nuances between what signals “welcoming,” what will work for different groups based on the different factors in their lives. You know, all of that.
The purse strings--like, we talked earlier in our conversation about the people who actually hold the purse strings... how does their power influence the decisions that finally get made through the design process and how that gets executed? ‘Cause I think that's one of the things that I've been struggling with is like, we can have all the right ideas in the world, but if the deciders...if they're stuck in their kind of rigid ways, how are we going to start to make a difference?
Marquise: Absolutely, that's a challenge. I also have confidence that the world is changing. And regardless of what people may be saying about, you know, the different movements that are happening... the friction that you're feeling is because things are changing. Either you're going to get on board with this change and listen, or are you going to be left behind.
It's very similar to some of the things that have happened in the women's movement as well. And if you're a CEO and you're refusing to have a conversation about women leadership, which, I bet there's still a lot of work that needs to be done--absolutely--then you're behind the times. And when I look at the gay rights movement, and you know, I live here in New York City and during the gay rights parade, everything's a rainbow, and every company imaginable has a flag and companies that you know don't care--and absolutely have never cared--but they're on board.
And last year, I was laughing ‘cause I was walking around Manhattan and seeing, I was like, I wonder when you're going to see big companies with, you know, Black Lives Matter all over and everywhere and you know, you're, you're seeing it now. Unfortunately it's becoming a “hey, please don't tear down my building” thing, versus something that’s very positive. I think that a lot of people are just kind of doing it so that they can say they're part of it and they're, “Hey, I hear you...now just please leave me alone.”
I'm looking for a day where companies, this is just a way of living--whether it's Black designers, where it’s Black executives, whether it's a Black accountant... that across the board, we're seen as valuable, and the values that we bring from our lived experience allows us to adapt and not be enforced to assimilate, and respecting our talent and value for what it is.
Olga: Right. That is the conversation in Detroit. Obviously it's a Black city, where Black culture has defined the kind of culture and way people see the city, right. You know, Motown and even car culture, you know, the whole thing. And I think especially as we struggle with revitalization, think about what's next, look around the city at all these kids that are Latinx kids and Black kids in schools, and they're so creative, figuring out... and they're the ones who should have the power to change our world because they know exactly what isn't right with our world. And so, yeah, I hear you. I hear you loud and clear. That's what really matters at this point after everything that's happened this year.
You and some other really amazing people co-founded Deem, a magazine, this year.
Marquise: Yes.
Olga: I think the storytelling, like I've loved learning more about the storytelling that you've done throughout your career, both at Openbox and now through Deem. Why does storytelling matter?
Marquise: Storytelling for us, particularly with Deem, it's an online publication and it's a hard copy, so there's a hard journal to it. And I mentioned that because for us, expressing evidence of who we are is really important. With the internet, and that's with things that change, you know, you refresh your Instagram and it changes--it's gone. Stories can be changed and manipulated. We felt that it's really important to have a journal. Not soundbites, but a real journal that expresses the evidence of design as a social practice across the world, and representing voices that have not always had a platform to speak from.
I don't consider this a Black publication. It is a global publication that's focused on design as a social practice. Our first issue, Designing for Dignity, was really focused on asking the question, “what is dignity?” and getting us to start to think about, what does that actually mean?
And so we started this magazine to really provide a platform that wasn't there, a gap in the space of design that we didn't know, obviously, what was gonna happen with George Floyd, we didn't know this moment was going to happen, and we didn't know COVID-19 was going to happen.
We knew that the conditions for these things were still evident in the day-to-day life, and that we needed a journal to help tell the better story for how people can survive, how people can work through it and how design can be one of the tools...not the expert tool, designers, we’re not experts--but one of the tools that will allow people to get through those moments, express how they want to see themselves in the world, and tell their story.
Olga: And so what are some of your favorite parts of that first issue? I know I looked through it, and there's some great stuff in there.
Marquise: Yeah. I mean, you know, the obvious one is adrienne maree brown. And I think for me, the photography and the way that we were able to shoot her photo and the cover was just beautiful. [Olga: Yeah.] And there's just so many layers to what that photo speaks to, and the photography throughout really speaks to people in action, and people expressing themselves...their full self and who they are...and that's the type of storytelling we do.
And so, I have Deem Magazine, then I also have a film company, Opendox, and some of the similarities was in a film called Shield and Sphere, that we did in modern day, in South Africa, really think about modern day South Africa, 20 years into apartheid... we did this several years ago, and it was us going down and listening to the stories of change, and what it meant for this new generation to reimagine South Africa and to reimagine themselves in South Africa. And so, any of the work that we're doing when it comes to storytelling, it's all about providing a platform for authentic voices and for people to be seen and for the evidence of their life to be shown.
Olga: To be seen--yeah. I mean, that just relates back to the start of our conversation about power and power in design, because if you're not seen, you can never really have power, even if you're at the table.
Marquise: Yeah, to me, it's a bit of everything of what design needs to do better--is redistribute the power structure within organizations. When we're thinking about design, particularly within the systems design of the work that we do, we have to understand that. So, it could be as simple as the work we did with the library, of making sure that people don't feel like they're being watched when they come in. DC is a city where you're constantly feel like you're being watched. And what does it mean to own yourself and to be a private citizen in a very public city?
And so when we're thinking about that design, there were questions around certain spaces that allowed for people to do their own research. To feel like they could safely look up certain things and review certain things. And so we have the power, as designers, to be mindful of that. To be mindful of what it means to be a human being, what it means to be a person, and that we're all different and that's okay--our lived experience is what makes us great. It's our collective good that makes us a beautiful human race. And we should all be recognized for that.
Olga: Yeah. To summarize, like, the pithy thing here is...it's both the seeing people, and the listening people, like if we just--if we use this moment to slow down, and really see and listen people...we can start to make the changes we want to see, and that’s something any of us can do if we’re intentional about it.
Marquise: Absolutely.
Olga: Well, Marquise, I'm so glad we got a chance to talk today.
Marquise: Yeah! This was awesome. Thank you.
Olga: And I'm so excited that you're going to be part of Detroit Month of Design with the D. Ford event that's taking place in September and I hope that at some point we'll be able to host you here in Detroit.
Marquise: Yeah. I would love to do that. Thank you so much for hosting me. It was a great conversation.
Olga: Yeah. Thanks so much for being on the show today and for the great work that you're doing.
Marquise: Thanks.
Olga: This has been the Detroit City of Design podcast. If you like what you just heard, please share this episode on social media via email or by any other means. For more information on Design Core Detroit visit designcore.org or search the hashtag #DesignCoreDET. That's Design C-O-R-E-D-E-T. Keep up with the show by subscribing for free in your favorite podcast app. Just search Detroit City of Design. And we hope you will join us for Detroit Month of Design this September.
The Detroit City of Design Podcast is produced by Olu and Company and edited by JAG in Detroit. Music by Jeff Miguel Wayne, courtesy of Ghostly Records. Special thanks to Jessica Malouf of Design Core Detroit. This podcast is a product of Design Core Detroit, part of the College for Creative Studies in Detroit, Michigan.