What does it mean to make a place truly accessible? The “LOVE” Building considered a lot more than ADA regulations in its approach. This project embraced a collaborative design process to develop a space that serves a diverse group of organizations and the broader community. Learn more from some of the key organizers and designers supporting this groundbreaking project.
LOVE Building, Design Guide: Real Estate Development
Thu, 6/7
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
building, detroit, design, process, space, project, people, disability, elevator, accessible, community, started, developer, development, projects, architects, city, nonprofits, bit, thinking
SPEAKERS
Dessa Cosma, Jeanette Lee, Saundra Little, Olga Stella
00:00
Olga Stella 00:00
Hi. I'm Olga Stella, the executive director of Design Core Detroit and the Vice President for strategy and Communications at the College for Creative Studies. Thank you for joining us for season three of the Detroit City of Design podcast. As stewards of Detroit's UNESCO City of Design designation, we aim to raise your awareness of how design can create conditions for better quality of life, and economic opportunity for all. In Season Three, we will hear from thought leaders who view our world through a lens of empathy and applied design thinking to address some of our world's most pressing issues.
Olga Stella 00:42
Today I'm going to be speaking with Desa Cosma, Executive Director of Detroit Disability Power. Jeanette Lee, Executive Director of Allied Media Projects, and Sondra Liddell, principal and director of diversity and inclusion, equity and architects on what it means to make a place truly accessible using the Love building in Detroit as an example. The Love building will serve as the home of a diverse group of Detroit nonprofit organizations interested in activating the building's potential as a force for justice, transformation, healing and liberation. In today's podcast, you'll learn how our guests are driving true accessibility beyond ADA regulations, thanks to a collaborative design process. This project is one of several case studies featured in Design Core's design guide for real estate development, the second in the series of guides to help decision makers better understand how designers can support their organizational outcomes. Thanks to the input of over 100 stakeholders, the guide helps real estate and community developers understand the value designers bring to each phase of the real estate development project through definitions, examples, practical worksheets, case studies, and more. This episode was originally filmed at True North and aired at the Edge of 52 conference in the just places track on May 21 2021. Thank you so much for joining me today. Really happy to be talking to all
02:07
Thank you.
Olga Stella 02:08
Well, I thought maybe we'd start with with Jeanette and talk a little bit about the transition that Allied Media Projects made from nonprofit to developer. So maybe tell us a little bit about your organization and how you came to work on the Love building.
Jeanette Lee 02:22
As Olga mentioned, I am Jeanette Lee, co executive director of Allied Media Projects. And we are a 21 year old now organization that started out really as a conference of community members in late 90s people who were invested in sharing the tools of just telling your own stories. And we've really grown and evolved since then to be a network of several 100 Media makers, technologists, artists, educators, designers, in Detroit, and across the country and globe. Increasingly, we're all using media for social justice. We've been based in Detroit since 2006. Part of that organization actually started in Bowling Green, Ohio. And since moving to Detroit, we have really bounced around and been displaced from different buildings, different neighborhoods in the city, we primarily would, you know, make home in different kinds of warehouse, artist's loft type spaces, like the 555 gallery and the Burton school and different places around the city. And we kind of landed in the factory in the Cass corridor. And we're there for about 8 9 10 years. What year is it?
Olga Stella 03:46
Yeah, so a long time.
Jeanette Lee 03:49
Anyways, we were really pushing against the limits of that space. And our organization has seen a lot of growth in especially the past five years, and we started looking for a new home that would be more permanent that could contain growth over the long term. And we had a really hard time we actually wanted to stay in our building tried to purchase that owner wanted three times as much as we could afford, looked at other buildings in the cast court or Midtown area, which had seen a lot of investment from philanthropy to kind of, you know, drive development there. But so it was increasingly unaffordable at the same time as philanthropy wasn't really investing anymore in helping make it affordable for nonprofits and artists, etc. So that's when we started looking elsewhere, and made several offers on places that we thought could be a good home for us. But we were beat out repeatedly by cash. So this was in 2017 2018 real estate market in Detroit was seeing investors from California or other places show up with like, literally a million dollars in cash and buy buildings. And so we were increasingly just discouraged and, and then we learned that the owners of 4731 Grand River, right behind us here are looking to sell. And we were able to make an offer that was accepted, really, I couldn't because it hadn't been listed. The only reason we were successful there. So when we were actually successful in purchasing that building, it felt very lucky. And we set about figuring out what to do with all this additional space. So we needed about 6000 square feet -what we're estimating for our own offices, and the building was around 27,000. So around that same time, you know, I was hearing from close partners of ours, other nonprofits, community ordinance organizers, who are working in the kind of Midtown, downtown core, about just the lack of affordable and accessible and spaces that meet the needs of our organizations, in all, all the different ways those needs look. And so that was sort of the genesis of how this building could be more than just a multi tenant space that was really about a synergy of organizations with aligned missions and visions.
Olga Stella 06:13
How did the name Love come to be? Was that something that came out of the process?
Jeanette Lee 06:18
It came out of, you know, waiting in line for the bathroom at a party.You know, we're Desa, and I had Amanda Alexander from the Detroit Justice Center were both talking about, you know, needing office space. And I mentioned that we were trying to buy this building, the one that has the big love mural on it which spells love in American Sign Language. You know, and so that at that point for like, Oh,
Olga Stella 06:57
Well, that's a great segue for Dessa to introduce yourself, and talk a little bit about your role in the project.
Dessa Cosma 07:04
Sure. Thanks so much for having me. I'm Dessa. I'm the director of Detroit Disability Power, we organize people with disabilities and our allies to build the political power of the disability community here in Detroit, in Metro Detroit in Michigan. And it's true, it did, this conversation did start for me, with Jenny, and Amanda, in line to the bathroom at a party and it was actually a women's party. And so it was, you know, 50 really badass Detroit women who get together every year. And as we were sitting there talking about, you know, what we were working on in our dreams, to, you know, change the world, of course, we were kind of talking about the lack of accessible, affordable places to work. And I had just started Detroit Disability Power at that time, and finding an accessible office space was almost impossible. There are so few places in Detroit that are truly accessible. And that is a really fun memory that I have of us, like not only talking about the problem, but coming up with these dreams for something really awesome, that are now coming to fruition several years later. And that's really exciting. And of course, because it's rehabbing a building, the building itself was not particularly accessible to begin with. And by having Detroit Disability Power as like a founding tenant partner in the project, I think we do bring a perspective and expertise to the process that is valuable. And I think pretty quickly it was, I mean, I'm not surprised because I've known Jeanette for years, but there was this idea of like, let's make this the most accessible building in Detroit, that's going to be part of the goal here. And that's going to be part of the thing we brag about when we talk about this redevelopment and this community hub that we're trying to create together. And so we've been a part of the process since that point, and have been really happy to be partners in it, not just because we, you know, feel very listened to, and, and like, participants in the process, but because we're learning so much ourselves, too. And that's been really cool.
Olga Stella 09:11
I know I want it we want to dig into the project a little bit. But before we do that, have Sandra introduce herself. And maybe tell us a little bit about how you know you are well known architect in Detroit worked on many projects. How is this project been either similar or different to other ones that you've worked on?
Saundra Little 09:27
Yes, definitely. Definitely different. Powerful. Yes, I'm Sandra Little. Architect, principal at Quinn Evans architects, also director of diversity, equity inclusion at Glen Evans, architects. It's hard to believe we were just talking about, Jeanette and I, it's been three years that we've been since we first started this, but it is it's very different. Just to have the advocacy part, be important to the developer, the development team and tenants is definitely changed. You know, design changing, you know, it's something that has pushed beyond the state of Michigan building code requirements, ADA requirements. And like, let's look at this to make it you know, accessible universal design. Even thinking of things like def space guidelines and how to how to implement that in the project, and in a typical developer does not think that way. So it's been really powerful just to listen and, and to learn, I learned so much from from Desa, and seeing her all the things he's doing throughout the city and advocating with the city for disability, you know, rights. And it's had a great effect on the project. Like I said, we were talking about number of things, you know, most developers are just trying to like, say, goal minimum, bare - you know, bare dollar amount. But when we were talking about things like let's level out the first floor, and make it accessible from all sides, because it was a three and a half, like a three, three and a half inch, that three and a half foot difference between the front entrance of the building and the rear building.
Olga Stella 11:01
Wow.
Saundra Little 11:01
So like, now the base of the building is accessible from all entryways. So that it's you know, you just don't see other developers doing things like that.
Olga Stella 11:10
Right. And so maybe we can talk a little bit about what the process look like. So you know, to to get to that to get to a spot where the developer is saying, No, we're going to spend the money to even out a three foot difference, because it's so critical to the values of this project, what we're trying to achieve. So I know I'm not sure if maybe Jenny can start a little bit and then Saundra can help fill in. Just what was the process like?
Jeanette Lee 11:37
The process has been an upward spiral. It has been nonlinear. Learning that our processes of nonlinear iterative community organizing, facilitated processes, they don't always mesh with the timelines and processes of, you know, development, which, by their nature kind of need to be linear. So yeah, hopefully, we're not, you know, driving Saundra and her team out of their minds, because we keep being like a never going to be visited again, because we just learned something from this process, which is ever unfolding. So, you know, he started with one process, you know, that was about, you know, well, we want to bring our partners together into this, and how do we envision a space that will meet all of our organizational needs? And that led us to an initial vision, which was enough to get started, that was like our concept package, they will get, you know, some initial funding and the schematics of the drawings, but then we, you know, felt confident enough in the fact that, okay, this is actually going to happen, that we began more deeper engagement with the neighborhood. We were putting goals that a lot of times, like developers will start with engagement in order, you know, and have good intentions, like, let's find out what everyone needs and wants, get people really excited, but then never materializes. Because actually super hard to raise all the financing and line all those pieces up. And that burns people out from wanting to engage in the development process. So we didn't start asking until we felt pretty sure it was going to happen. But then once we, again, we learned new things right from the residents neighborhood needed and wanted, we launched a Disability Justice and access Advisory Council. Again, once we felt like, Okay, this is a real thing, and learned even more through that. And so this is ongoing. There are about four different kind of advisory bodies that are orbiting each other, overlapping, feeding insights into the process. And we're trying to kind of weave all of that together with that original vision and the pieces of the plan that are already fixed. As more and more of those pieces kind of get fixed, like okay, now those walls have been framed. That's it. Now the flooring has been laid. That's it. And then, you know, we just keep having to be told like this is Yeah, yeah. It is unimaginable.
Saundra Little 14:16
We get the dance floor in just in time though.
Jeanette Lee 14:23
So for for dance classes to happen, right? Of course. Before it's just about to pour the concrete.
Olga Stella 14:33
Well, I think it would be great to maybe to hear even a little bit more about when you have that kind of a participatory process and how it you know, interrelate with the real estate development kind of typical design timeframe and processes. You know, how have you had to flex or adjust and what's maybe been been, you know, like the upside of this, you know, maybe there's some downside to but like, you know, can others do this is this doable?
Saundra Little 15:01
I think it's a model to make it doable. I mean, like Jeanette, explained it perfectly, it's like you have this linear world of development that is, you know, very schedule driven, especially once you get the contractors on board and budgets and costs start to come in. But true and community engagement, people talk about it all the time, right. But it's not a linear process. And it takes time that listening takes time. And like she said, we've had so many, you know, just in the city of Detroit press releases about projects that never happen, you know, to take that approach to wait. And you know, and to engage the public afterwards, the community afterwards is, you know, we have the money, this is real, it means a lot to me, and then for the community to have input on like, we, you know, after we get the first set of renderings Go on, it's like, well, the community had input on what the elevator tower color should be. And I was like, wow, I have never experienced a fact that you know, of a community being a part of color selections. And like, let's make this more fitting in with the corridor and the arts, that buildings that are coming down the street and different things. So it really feel like it's a collective design effort, true connected design effort, versus we collectively wanted to collect the beginning. And now we're just moving on with the project. Thank you. So I really commend Allied media, I really commend Detroit disability power. I mean, just like I said, things like, yes, you know, the minimum is three foot, you know, three foot doors. But, you know, with somewhat the power wheelchair that's brought to our attention, you know, we need the doors to be three foot clear. So they're larger than the three foot door. So it's like, it's been a lot of learning on my part, but it's seeing true community engagement, which I had not seen a lot of I see it before. Yeah, let's get started, but not during the process.
Olga Stella 16:46
Yeah. Then maybe Dessa from your perspective, as someone who's advocating for this, you know, just as part of your job like your every day, what are the lessons that you hope other real estate developers, and other architects and designers can take from a project like this?
Dessa Cosma 17:01
Oh, there's so many and I, and the first thing I think about is how grateful I am to be in a process that is truly collaborative and iterative. As Saundra has said, there are codes and those codes are super important to making sure that people with a variety of disabilities can fully participate, but alone, they just don't cut it. Right, I can't tell you how many times there has technically been an accessible entrance to a building. But as a wheelchair user, I have to go, you know, three blocks out of my way to find an alleyway with no signs to find the ramp, right. And so they're meeting the code, but the spirit of it isn't there. And what that tells me when I arrive is This place isn't for me, this place doesn't really care if I come or not there, they're not really interested in what I have to offer, because they didn't make it possible for me to actually participate without being super grumpy by the time I got in the building. And, you know, cumulatively over a lifetime that has quite the impact. And so to be in a process where the the code is not only met as it should be, which unfortunately, honestly, is not always the case anyway. But to be listened to and say, how do you want to feel in this space? Like how do you want to show up in your fullness, as opposed to having to leave part of who you are at the door, because it's inconvenient in the design process, or we didn't think of it, or we don't know anybody like you. So we didn't prioritize it. That all is something that people have disabilities are very used to experiencing. But it's really detrimental to everyone, right? So when we can't show up in our fullness, the space and the conversation suffers, because we actually do have something to add. And it also hurts us not to be able to fully participate. And so this kind of collaborative, real, intentional process to go above the bare minimum is should be the model. And it's, I love the idea that people will look at it and say like, Oh, this is possible. Yes, it takes longer, maybe, yes, there might be some other costs involved. But what you get out of it is so much better. We're not there yet, but I think we at some point will be like it was worth it. You know, it was definitely worth it. And and I think the kind of final piece on that is, you know, there's this, there's this kind of ableist mindset, that accommodating disabled people. And we're not all wheelchair users, right? Like there's a whole bunch of variety in our community that that needs attention. But there's this kind of ableist dominant narrative about accommodating us is like, a pain in the butt or expensive or just for a handful of people.
Olga Stella 19:47
Right.
Dessa Cosma 19:47
That's really messed up thinking. And that's messed up thinking for a couple of reasons. One is that we built this whole society wrong the first time. Don't blame us that we're now asking you to fix it.
Olga Stella 20:00
Right, right.
Dessa Cosma 20:01
Like if we would have built all the buildings accessibly the first time, it wouldn't be more expensive to retrofit. Right? And so if we're not including the cost of the original development, in the calculation for what the development needs to be, we're just actually pinning some blame on the folks who need it to be better. Right? And that's just a philosophical switch that needs to happen. And also, it's not just a few people. People with disabilities are the largest marginalized group in the country. And we're from every single background. And so it's not like four people in wheelchairs that you're spending extra money to accommodate. It could be you tomorrow, right? It could be your grandma, you know, it's a whole bunch of us.
Olga Stella 20:47
Well, I think I think this idea, you know, part of what all three of you have really talked to kind of hit on is this idea that there are these misconceptions that it somehow takes longer, or whatever. And, I mean, I think many of us could point to real estate development projects in Detroit, that were not developed with this kind of participatory mindset that took longer and cost more money, right. And so the idea that somehow only community engagement or only, I'm going to say accommodating, but considering the full range of participants is somehow going to do that is I agree, it's not it's it's it's very small minded thinking it's convenient thinking, from wanting to do things a certain way. I wonder maybe if if, as we kind of start to wrap up our conversation, we could talk a little bit about unexpected, either challenges or opportunities that you saw through the process. And in anyone can kind of jump in.
Jeanette Lee 21:51
Well, I can talk about one, which again, it kind of is it emerges from this iterative process and the challenging mashup of that with development timelines, but we, you know, we're looking at this four story building that had at one point a freight elevator, because it was originally designed to be furniture showroom warehouse. But no, no functional, has no functional elevator at all, just a shaft. And so firstly, you know, went through a lot of thinking about trying to put a new elevator in that existing shaft, you know, through conversations with Detroit Disability Power and understanding, like, the tenants of universal design, which is that like, the front entrance, the main entrance, the one that everyone uses should be the accessible one, not a separate entrance in the back, right? And so became really clear, okay, we're building a whole new shaft, or elevator tower, it's gonna be right at the front of the building. You know, elevator lead times are like the longest piece of the project. It's like the most expensive, the most heavily regulated particular piece of the project. And so we're moving right along. And then. So through a consultant that we had working with us on this Disability Justice Council, and they said, Oh, you know, you should just have a conversation with this. The director of this building in Berkeley, California, called the Ed Roberts campus, it's like the most accessible building in the country. And so we said, Great, we had a phone call with him. And he told us lots of fascinating things about this building. And the one thing that really, that really stuck with me was he was like, No, no, of course, you need elevator redundancy. And you were like, what? You know, elevators will break, you know, you can have a backup generator, power failures, stuff like that. But just on a day to day, like the maintenance, it's gonna break and
Olga Stella 23:53
Oh, my
Jeanette Lee 23:54
Get stuck on floors. step downs, they can't get to their office. We were like, of course, of course, there should be 2 elevators. And we know because, you know, we do our conference, Allied Media conference at Wayne State. And without fail, you know, that if someone gets stuck in an elevator with because, you know, whatever, that's just a thing. And so we were like, yeah, that that doesn't work. And so then we started asking, you know, is it too late? Can we build another one? An extra 300,000 if you do it now and a half million if you do it later, so maybe like, so then we're scrambling to figure out okay, can we like fundraise a little bit more? And now we have to restart the permitting process. So that's just like a challenge that we're facing at this very moment. So yeah, top of mind, you know, where it's like, you know, the opportunity is that we have these relationships, these like, advisors helping us along the way and we're like learning these things. But then that challenge of like we said, just slotting it in right moment.
Olga Stella 25:01
Yes, the trade offs, decision making. What about you? Saundra or Desa.
Saundra Little 25:06
I mean, like I said, I commend Jeanette to be able to go get the money. I mean, just, we have so many projects that we work on from a design standpoint, it's you feel like that are limited as far as budget, right? This is what we can do. But she finds out the correct information, the correct pathway, and then gets the money to do it. And that's like, that is a whole new mindset that as an architect, I had to say, in Detroit, where we don't have the big budget projects. That is refreshing to see. So yeah, we, you know, it's shocking, we're like, well, we are we're adding an elevator, okay. We're like this is I, it just blows my mind, really, because you know, that she's able to get the funding to keep pushing the boundary. So we'll find a way to design it to get it in, we did a couple studies and looked at it, talked about it together, and then tried to fit that into the whole, how do you do it permitting wise and construction wise, is what we're going through now. So it's just been, you know, interesting to learn how to talk to, you know, the contractors to get that flex, and, but at the same time, I just feel empowered in those conversations, because , this client is able to make it happen. I don't know if she knows it but, this is amazing. But yeah, it's just, uh, I mean, like I said, a lot of things that I just, I'm not used to seeing that things that the community wants, things that tenants want, you know, are thought about totally in the design from, you know, from shared spaces to their own space, to, you know, to feeling of each of the spaces in between each of the suites. So, it is just refreshing as a designer to work with the client that actually puts, you know, force behind the mission.
Olga Stella 26:56
What about you, Desa?
26:57
Well, I, the thing I'm thinking about is just how much our values are being displayed in not only the process, but the final product. And so in addition to values around universal design, and community engagement, I think there's a real intentionality about creating a space that is enjoyable to be in, where connections can be made, where we can have fun, and all of us are social justice organizations. So we have a lifetime of work ahead of us that is really hard and can be really demoralizing at times. But I think that Allied Media Projects, and the folks that are at the table designing this, understand that we have to find joy in our everyday connections with people and with our work if we're going to sustain it for the long haul. So the fact that you know, there's going to be food on the first floor, the fact that there's space for gatherings, that there's a roof top area where we can have a beautiful view and enjoy fresh air, and that there's going to be green space and a place for prayer and meditation, these are all things that help us be well rounded, and are part of our values as changemakers. And in trying to model that social justice work, it doesn't just have to be a slog, right, you know, it's hard, and it's worth it. But like, we can also be good to ourselves in the process, and that I'm just excited to work in that environment, because I know it's going to enhance my work and in my own personal well being at the same time.
Saundra Little 28:25
And you have standards out there you have like LEED buildings, wellness building standards, as well. But all of that's happening in this process project without that, you know, certification, but all of those key factors that are in each of those, you know, design, you know, standard systems that we use are incorporated in this building, right. It's just like, we're thinking about everything I mean, and, and we also have to think about, you know, post pandemic, how, you know, design way so it also took it to the next level as well, you know, like, so things like, you know, you know, biking to work and, you know, even charging stations for, you know, vehicles, everything has been thought about from a sustainable and inclusive design aspect in this project. It's been amazing.
Olga Stella 29:13
And what do you think is made that difference given that, you know, all of these rubrics and standards and opportunities already exist, you know, just from your experience working all these projects, Saundra. What, what has brought that all together in this project versus in some other projects?
Saundra Little 29:29
I definitely think is the you know, the kind of ethos of Allied Media, because we never talked about, you know, I mean, Jeannette knows that I'm a leader, professional, but we never say oh, we need to make this a LEED building, right? We just need to make this a building where everybody feels welcome. It, you know, it is, you know, universal accessibility design is the focus. You know, that, you know, once everybody came on board and tenants got in it's like, this is the focus of the project. You have all these nonprofits that are mission driven and you know. We want a place that everybody feels home, we talked about a resimercial field to the interior design of the building, I was just everything that they wanted in their ethos just happened to align with the standards that we use in the industry, but that's the way that they are. And it's, and I hope they you know, like, you know, they're getting the space that they want to have to be able to work and live in. Because you always feel like you live at work, right.
Olga Stella 30:22
Right.
Saundra Little 30:25
To work in that they feel comfortable in it and just enlightened to hear them say to to feel empowered to continue to do this work.
Olga Stella 30:33
Maybe it will have you close this out Jeanette, and just have you as you think about given how much values have been infused in the in the building and in the process, what's, you know, one impact that you hope the building will have, but maybe also just a lesson to others? Like if some people don't learn something from this process? What do you hope that they learn?
Jeanette Lee 30:55
Yeah, I mean, I think it's an interesting question. Because this, like Saundra said, like it, it's unique, and it's coming together in a unique way, because it's development, but it's also nonprofit. And so philanthropy actually has a huge role to play and CDFIs have a huge role to play. And so there's just like, a lot of what we're making possible, I understand, like, a typical development unfolding in a typical market way, is not going to be able to do if you have to balance everything that you invest in it with the like the return, you know, from like, whether that's having your tenants pay, you know, basically pay for the improvements through rent, right? And so we're trying to, you know, I think, the expectation, our hope is, this building will be a model, but not then that, like, every building will be this, but that every development could look at it and take a piece of like, Well, how do we want to be able to do this in our development? And like, how did so how did you do that? And then, you know, little by little, but yeah, I've been just like showing a whole range of what might be possible. Yeah. That then people can can begin to apply in a way that they create engagement and you know, accessibility and yeah, thoughts on the sort of the design of space.
Olga Stella 32:14
Well, thank you so much. Thank you so much to all three of you for joining us here today and for helping to share both the lessons and the process behind the Love building and I'm can't wait to walk into it and help celebrate it when it's finally ready. Thank you.
Olga Stella 32:51
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